SRi restoration project

[Telegram Sam]

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[Telegram Sam]

My recommendation always has been Vactan. It is almost like the positive product description is written about Vactan.
Vactan converts the corroded metal to safe blacky - purple materal.
It leaves a plasticky coating - thus you do not need to apply a paint or other costing

Is Vactan idiot-proof in the sense that you don't need to worry about over-applying it?

Fe-123 seems to do the same thing but you do have to overcoat it

[Robsey]

If a pure novice like me can use it to good effect, then you can't get much closer to idiot proof.

I just brushed it on..
Over applying was not a huge issue, although I will admit to applying generous amounts on the worst affected areas.

Only effect that this had for me was the longer drying time... which is to be expected.

[Telegram Sam]

Does it come in an aerosol for the less accessible areas?

If it's a one-shot application does it not - in defence of FE-123 + Dinotrol - suffer from the disadvantage that you can't see how much rust is still there hiding underneath and waiting to spread unseen? With the Rustbuster system you can at least get some idea of how effective the rust conversion has been before covering it up with the underseal.

[ilovedmymantas]

It seems to work in a similar way, can be applied by brush or electric (airless) spray gun.
Link : http://performance-chemicals.net/vactan/

[Robsey]

You can still see the underlying metal as the plasticky coating is clear - see through.

As described above.. it is a milky liquid that you can brush or use an air-less spray gun.

Works for me, but I am one person...not a sample set of 100 or more people.

[btcctroy]

Hi Sam,
Looking at the photos it appears that this isn't a full restoration.
I see that the rear chassis leg has been plated rather than a piece fabricated, this type of repair is limited.
for the rust to fester and grow at this rate I'm assuming that none of the floor/sills was painted with a 2k/epoxy type product before the waxoil was applied.
Any waxoil product assuming it doesn't dry out is meant to be a barrier to moisture water and like. it will do the reverse if applied to rust directly, as I believe the solvents in the wax oil assist this.

I have used loads of rust converters over the years, fe123 is about the only one that I feel works the best for me
no rust converter will stand up as a top coat for long, its meant to be painted over with a good encapsulator.
Id rather just paint the under side so it can be assessed periodically for recurrence.

Restoring a car that hasn't been dipped to free the shell of existing rust is a challenge, there will always be rust inside boxed areas. All the original coatings need to be removed back to the ecoat.
The garage that you had the work carried out I assume the following
5k you spent, well 2k of that would of been the respray I assume.
The other 3k works to about 75 hours of labour with vat included, that's assuming you supplied all the materials.
so on average being generous
8 hours to remove replace full sill panel (without inner sill work) easy to spend another 20 hours here
15 hours for a full quarter panel replacement, inner panel may require repair work so again more time.
75 hours soon gets used up.

a full restoration of cavalier is probably no less than 300 hours and to be done properly would be 10K without paint.
if you want a rust free car then I suggest you get the shell dipped or oven baked followed by a electronic galv process or an electrically static epoxy coating. this wont be cheap but will preserve the car.

Regards
Troy

[Telegram Sam]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply - I was thinking of seeking your views.

Not being "into" car restoring myself I have to take what the experts say on trust and not challenge the details. I can remember discussing with Envoy Gary at the outset the various options, re-shelling / dipping and so on - great in theory but how to put into practice with only limited contacts and budget - quite a problem. So I settled for the next best thing (I thought) accepting that the compromise result would require continuous watching over. Which was the reason for signing up - as additional "insurance" - for the Rustbuster program which starts off with them "blitzing" the car professionally with all their treatments (including cavity injection) rather than me doing a toe-in-the-water DIY job, followed by annual inspections and top-ups.

I guessed that shelling out for all that would see me clear for some time so when things went pear-shaped only 2 years / 11 K miles later I was clattered. No response from the restorer so far but recriminations from Rustbuster over the standard of work for £5K. This has soured relations. (RB say with some justification that there was a limit to what they can do without stripping back everything that had just been welded in place)

Assuming that I can get a better outcome from getting the job redone by Bonello in Newcastle - who I hope has the same standards as you - I have to now have a rethink about future rust prevention and cure. Sure I can apply Fe-123 followed by Dinitrol as before where I notice rust coming back but that is not the same as doing it professionally. Is there an answer??

[humbucker]

I think you need to take a step back and look at this from a different perspective. For a start, to look at this objectively, you need to ignore the sum of money you spent. Yes, it's frustrating to shell out for a job and not be happy with the end result, but worrying about how out of pocket you are is a separate issue to whether or not the job was done properly in the first place. By that I mean that you would probably have got varying quotes for the same job from different bodywork specialists, so the sum you ended up paying is kinda immaterial when the real question is 'did the job get done?'. The issue of value for money is a separate one.

So the first thing to do is look at the bills/quotes you got from each service provider and see if what's listed is actually what got done. You can then start to see where blame might be apportioned. In this instance, you're gonna have an uphill struggle getting one of them to acknowledge fault when it could be the work of the other that has contributed to the corrosion. I think you also need to look at what exactly the Rustbuster process is, the materials used and their approach to preparation and the identification of poorly metal. As Troy says, trapping moisture in will have a devastating effect on your car's chassis, not unlike that we're seeing in your pictures. I should stress, I'm not pointing the finger, simply stating the obvious.

Finally, based on the experiences outlined here, you might want to be wary of any bodywork specialist that is quick to point out how bad the job you've had done is and that they can rectify the problem in exchange for a bag full of pennies. It isn't unheard of for tradesmen to agree with everything you say simply to get your work (often work that isn't strictly necessary). Again, not saying that's the case here, but 'once bitten' and all that...

[btcctroy]

Totally agree with Mr.Humbucker.
The issue is the car rusting which obviously needs to be dealt with asap.

I'd however in the mean time look into the rustbuster process and how they evaluate the existing corrosion for treatment.
If they have been looking at this annually then I'm pretty sure there would of been signs of recurrence. So was this identified?

The next step with the car is to get the total underside stripped of the sludge so it can be assessed properly.
A good clean up, rust stopper and a good quality marine paint, will slow the rot.
Any weak areas can be cut out and pieces fabricated to suit.

Paint doesnt hide anything so this in my experience is the best approach.
I can show you pictures of a repair that I did on my van before the winter that shows this well

Troy

[Telegram Sam]

I have to agree with the above posts of course though a set of crystal balls and hindsight would help with backtracking in history.
In practice there are limits to just how far someone with limited tec knowledge can go towards challenging the restoration experts, particularly when they then fall out with each other. Proving who is right and who is wrong, and where ... in retro a waste of time. At the end of the day you put your trust in one and/or the other and hope to hell that the choice was a wise one. If it wasn't then you pay the penalty and wonder what would have been a better course given the practical circs at the time.

I tried putting your above points to RB but with limited success on account of their "defence" which I mentioned above and which has some but not complete justification. I am undecided how to proceed with them in future.

I will make my mind up in consultation with Bonello when he does the re-work. I get the impression that he will go along anyway with much of this corresp.

[marine paint for car undersides?? New one on me that, I'd be worried about it acting as a moisture trap or being too brittle to resist chipping]

[James McGrath]

[marine paint for car undersides?? New one on me that, I'd be worried about it acting as a moisture trap or being too brittle to resist chipping]

Wrong. Marine paint is some of the toughest and most corrosion resistant on the market.
Many of the best anti-corrosion waxes were developed for marine applications such as Dynax S50.
Think about it, ships have to stand up to allot of punishment at sea, they need good protection.

[btcctroy]

marine paint for car undersides?? New one on me that, I'd be worried about it acting as a moisture trap or being too brittle to resist chipping

Well what made you decide that lashings of wax oil was the best route to follow.
ive expressed my views more than once on this forum regarding the filthy stuff.
it is my number one hate! i normally turn cars away covered in the shit as its highly flammable.
i use stonechip if you prefer to have impact protection. but again use a 2k product that resists salt.
upol raptor is terrific
http://www.amazon.com/U-Pol-Products-08 ... B00NOIKSPC

[Telegram Sam]

I stopped using Waxoyl some years ago - and still have 2 x 5L cans unused in the garage to prove it. It is unlikely that Waxoyl had anything to do with my present concerns. RB are equally negative about the stuff.

Would you then use Upol Raptor on top of Fe-123 (instead of Dinitrol / Vactan?)

[btcctroy]

well the coating you have had applied from RB is essentially the same. The wax based dinitral has ruined your car, it shouldnt of been applied and why it was applied i really dont know.
looks horrid!
i bet no rust remedy was applied and they just lashed a thick gooey coat of the disgusting stuff on. i looks totally ripe! rust at its highest accelleration!
the underside will need days of stripping and cleaning before any paint would adhere to it.

[btcctroy]

Would you then use Upol Raptor on top of Fe-123 (instead of Dinitrol / Vactan?)

as previously stated i dont use any single pack products other than bilt hamber electrox on the underside. its all 2k products.
most wax oil products are total shit!
there is one that i use after its painted its a cavity wax and its thin like wd40 and gets in the smallest joints. was a winner by practical classics after a 3year test

[Telegram Sam]

I will find out from Mike Bonello to what extent he can provide a complete solution. If so, well and good.

If not, and if his service does not include a long term rustproofing solution (but does get the welding properly sorted out) >> what would you do if you were me? ($10,000 question) I don't have a ramp or any other facilities in my driveway let alone tec expertise.

[TurboDan]

Oh dear that does look a mess.

As said already most of the 5k was probably for the paintjob, assuming that's any good?

Its allot of money and I would be absolutely gutted to see it rusting away like that already, its definitely not had a proper job done, I doubt they have even cut the rust out under neath looks like they have just patched over the top so under the patch it will still be rusting away nicely.

I would be driving it back down to the bodyshop that did it and have words with them see what they can do about it or demand some money back.

Then the next thing I would do is send troy a message and get him to do the work for you. He wont do it for free but his work is spot on as you can see on robseys car.

[ilovedmymantas]

I'd imagine neither company would want bad publicity
Watchdog must be due to come back, they might be helpful
.......and if all else fails there's always Judge Rinder - he's good for compensation up to 5k !

[Lowrider Dave]

there is one that i use after its painted its a cavity wax and its thin like wd40 and gets in the smallest joints. was a winner by practical classics after a 3year test

I think that was Classic Formulation 3125 which is basically DInatrol under a different name. I keep hearing things about Michael Sander’s Corrosionsschutzfett too.

[humbucker]

was a winner by practical classics after a 3year test

So was Rustbuster

[ilovedmymantas]

There's always the stuff the forth bridge was painted with, good for 25 years apparently

http://www.coatings.org.uk/article/fort ... nt-20.aspx

link to the company info/brochures etc. at bottom of the page

[Telegram Sam]

I think I'm on a loser. There's been no response from the restorer in Boston and driving down there to confront him with the evidence would produce nothing but 400 miles of wasted Super Unleaded. There will be blame game between him and Rustbuster and it could well be that both are at fault - now that the finger is pointing at Dinitrol.
Seems that I could use a variety of paints but always with the worry that they are sealing in the moisture underneath.
I'm pinning my faith in Bonello here being able to do a Troy job (see what prevention he will pin his name to) - otherwise it's a long trek down along the M62 to Oldham, cap in hand.

"So was Rustbuster " They made that point to me more than once!

One day I'll show it to you all, fully restored, once the pigs have stopped flying around.

[Robsey]

It is a bitter Set back...

But finances permitting, it doesn't necessarily make it the end of the road.

Regarding Troy's work.
Yes he is astoundingly thorough in his workmanship and his technical understanding of work required.
He has used the best chemicals throughout, including epoxy sealant paint and multiple types of liquid cavity waxes, moisture displacers.
Noxudol, Reptol and Fe123.

Despite all that, he has told me that I must return the car to him annually for a thorough inspection and to have any remedial work to be carried out.

But do be aware - if he does take on your car, it will be a long drawn out job.
He works full time during the day and then spends about 4 hours each evening on the garage work.

A true workaholic.

[Telegram Sam]

In these circs I am fully committed to [Rustbuster style] annual inspections otherwise the problem will just come back to hit me and the investment in repairs will [again] be wasted.

Once our govt / Brussels gets HS 3 between Newcastle and Oldham up and running then Plan B will become viable.